Dave Smith and Jack Weaver Interview
Interview with Dave Smith and Jack Weaver
April 1, 2023
Memorial Stadium
Champaign, IL
Duration:
33:41
I = Interviewer
DS = Dave Smith
JW = Jack Waver
I: So both of you introduce yourselves.
DS: I'm Dave Smith from Beatrice, Nebraska.
JW: I'm Jack Weaver from Wheaton, Illinois.
I: And around the time of Farm Aid, what were you both doing?
DS: I was working for Land O'Lakes in Eastern Iowa, it was an agricultural cooperative, I worked in the livestock feed division. As for the background, we're brothers-in-law, I married his sister. So I grew up on my grandparents farm. I worked for them and I’ll let Jack explain where he came from, but But 1985, I was in Eastern Idaho working with farmers in agriculture
for Land O'Lakes.
JW: In 1985, I was living in the suburbs of Chicago. I was working for a commodity brokerage firm, I was on the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange. I’m a livestock trader but I was definitely involved in the farm stuff. I grew up on a farm in Northeastern Kansas. If you go down to Springfield, Illinois and go west, just about 300 miles, that's where I grew up. And I was actively involved, with at least talking to my parents and understanding what's going on as they were making decisions about the farm. And in terms of what was happening with farmers income, land situations, things of that nature, that time I was well aware of what was going on.
I: Could you tell me more specifically about what you guys encountered while you were on your jobs, specifically how you all saw farmers try to deal with the farm crisis at the time?
DS: Good question. I worked with a lot of farmers. The place where I worked, we sold feed for livestock. And so I saw farmers going bankrupt, mainly in the green side. And the cost a bit of
an economic lessening, which Jack’ll tell you about better. A large, large part of the problem was cash flow. But another large part was that balance sheets were falling apart because the value of land was dropping so rapidly. And also you throw the drought in there of ‘83, ‘88, ‘89…I know of farmers that lost farms that had been in the family for 10, 20, 50 years. I know of bankers that feared for their life because they are canceling loans and, and because farmers, there
were some bankers that were shot and killed because farmers were mad at them. So there was a high level of anxiety and stress during that time.
JW: One of the reasons I was working in a professional job rather than going home to farm was I realized that things were kind of tough. And to provide some perspective, I'm sure you've studied this, you know that there was the Earl Butz proclamation, plant fence row to fence row. There was the grain embargo of the earlier 70s. Grain prices were strong, land prices were strong throughout the 1970s. And then with Volcker's action on inflation and interest rates, in 79, 80, interest rates shot up, land values dropped, and then they started to decline. That coupled with a couple of hard years drought wise, the 80s were a very difficult situation. Now, I was a young man then, but my father in the early '80s was basically 60 years old. He'd had the benefit of having worked for a number of years building equity. He was a successful farmer. Not that there weren't gentlemen in their 50s and 60s losing their farms, but he had a stronger equity position. In the 1980s, we were buying farmland from people that were going out of
business rather than being forced to go out of business ourselves. So it was a period of
growth or expansion for us versus what was a tragic time for a number of farmers.
I: Any estimate of how many farms he bought up at the time?
JW: I know we bought a farm in 1980 before things collapsed. Again, all land values are relative, but benchmark it at that time, $1,000 an acre was about as high as land values got in Northeastern Kansas. Illinois values are probably, maybe double what northeastern Kansas would have been. By 1985, we bought one farm for $350 an acre. And quality, I'd say, is fairly comparable. So you could argue that there was a 60 to 70% decline in land values. And that's really the basis. You have your operating business, but land values are a big factor when you're looking at getting loans, whether it's to operate or to purchase other things. And that was probably the low watermark. Although we really didn't see the great recovery in land
values until really after 2000.
I: I see. And I know you mentioned that many bankers feared for their lives. So did you visit a lot of towns while you were on the job as well? Did you get to see how they were dealing with the farm crisis, shops struggling in general, or bankers having issues?
DS: The bankers or everybody?
I: Just the towns in general.
DS: I didn't visit a lot of towns. I don't know other than a stress level, I don't know if there were a lot of businesses closing. There were some businesses closing just because of agriculture
not doing well. In a lot of communities. Nothing does well. But I don't know if I saw a lot of other businesses closing. Some of them. I know some businesses didn't get paid, which is going to affect their bottom line. But banks, I know banks did close. Though as the farm economy goes
rural America goes. And if farmers aren't making money, they aren't buying pickups, they aren’t buying new tractors and combines. And that slows down the economic impact there. The other thing, totally unrelated was the Walmartification of rural America was really starting about
that time. That had a bigger impact on closing local businesses in rural communities. Because Walmart would come in and everybody would go shop there. The grocery store would go down, the five and dime store would go down, the clothing store would go down. And that wasn't a function of Farm Aid or the farm crisis directly. And it was more a function of what Walmart has done across the country.
JW: Plus throw in the double-digit inflation going on at the time. That didn't help local
businesses either. So I mean, it was like a perfect storm.
DS: Right, it causes things to be really tough. I mean, you've experienced
in the last 12 months what inflation does in terms of the psyche and its impact.
And inflation was about double what it was, you know, in the past year, back in the late '70s,
early '80s, inflation rates, I mean, I remember, you know, mortgage rates being 14, 15%.
That kind of thing. That had a big factor in terms of draining farmers' finances in the early '80s.
I: I see. It’s interesting because I did not expect Walmart to be brought up.
JW: Well, I'm not blaming Walmart. But if you as a kid, growing up in the '60s and early '70s,
at Christmas time, you go to a town of 3,500 people, little over 3,000. And there were three hardware stores and they would have guns and bicycles and toys and stuff like that. And so you go store to store, to store at Christmastime and kinda put together your Christmas wishlist. And Once Walmart came in, it was a matter of maybe ten years where most of those businesses were gone. And again, I'm not blaming Walmart. I like Walmart, but my mother did not.
My mother who was born in 1919, viewed them as a bane on the existence of the local community. But anyhow, [...] Sorry. We don't want to take off at Walmart. But again, I think
one of the things I would like to provide is not so much about Farm Aid, but giving you a
broader perspective of what was going on at the time. Because just like today, maybe not as divided as we are today in terms of political spectrum. There were still varying opinions on Farm Aid. Was it good, Was it bad, did it really do anything? And we can talk more
about that if you wish.
I: Yeah, sure. So what do you remember about the general political environments, when the topic of farm aid first popped up.
DS: The farmers that I was around, it wasn't very popular. A lot of the entertainers had different political views than much of rural America. So they may have liked the idea of getting some help, but a lot of farmers, especially at that time, did not want help from any outsiders. We will take care of that ourselves. I remember in 1983, there was a program called payment in kind. It was a government program. And I remember farmers didn’t - there were farmers that did not participate in that government program. Now, I don't know of any farmer who has not participated in a program since 1983. You almost had to. And so the psyche changed a little bit around that time that maybe it's okay for farmers to ask for help. But as far as getting on the farm Aid bandwagon, there's a lot of farmers that did not. It was more considered the radical people that did. So it was, it was a split decision.
JW: Farmers are notoriously independent. And the idea of taking “charity”, if I can put my air quotes out there, or being on the receiving end of “charity.” Now, maybe a neighbor will, you know, if he's got a bunch of turnips or corn or whatever, you know, he'll put an extra bushel out there, now for you to give somebody money…that was anathema. You know. If I'm pronouncing the word correctly [...] And they mentioned the PEK program. In the past, there were programs where if you produce, you were told that you could plant so many acres and produce so much. And if the price was under that, they would basically buy the crop from you at the floor price. Well, the PEC program, instead of giving you money or buying your crop, they would just give
you more of it. And so it just kinda piled up on things. And but one of the positive things that
probably came out of the '80s was a lot of the underpinnings of the farm programs that we have today. And those, I mean, it's too strong to say you can't go broke farming. But the safety net is much broader, bigger, and more robust than it was back then. More generous. Perhaps. Just look at land values. If farmers were doing so poorly, why are we paying record values for land this year? You know, up to $20,000 an acre in Illinois That's not every piece, but there have been pieces traded at that level.
I: Again, politics wise, Do you think there was a big split between the Republican and Democrat views? Because I know you said that the divide wasn’t isn't as big as it is now, but did you feel there was still some tension between siding with those two parties?
DS: I don't think it was the dichotomy of the Republicans, the Democrats. It was probably the farm state senators and congressmen versus the urban state congressmen and senators.
Not along political lines as it is along geographic or you vote your pocketbook. And the congressman from, I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican. You want it to support
farmers and the family farm. This idea that family farm, boy, we got to save the family farm.
I think that was a big thing at that time. And I think that played well in a lot of urban areas as well. “Ah, the poor farmer, the man out there standing in his field!” [laughs]
I: Urban-wise, would you say there was a lot of support for farmers in general? Or was it more of a mixed reaction to the crisis?
DS: Urban wise, I don't know, everything was so bad. It wasn't just agriculture. It was when I lived in Davenport, Iowa. There was double digit unemployment too. And so everybody was in a mess. About every third house was for sale in Davenport, Iowa. Now [the brands] Caterpillar
and John Deere, which are agriculturally related. But I think it was maybe more of a non-issue
to urban areas than anything. I don't think they were for or against them. I think it was a
rather neutral, but you may have a different perspective on that.
JW: I'm not sure I can speak. I lived in an urban area, but I was in my own little world too often.
Too often we all are. I'm not sure I can speak intelligently to that. Heck, I'm not sure if any of this has any intelligence.
I: It's good. It's good. What else? So when Farm Aid first popped up, what did both of you personally think of it? Was it actually going to make an impact? Oh, well, it's nice that
they're here, but will it actually do anything?
DS: I didn't think it would do anything.I think the problem was so large that it was kinda
like ‘this is nice’, maybe bring some attention. But I'm going to just get into my politics, which I don’t want to, but it's like people, they want to raise money for a cause that maybe they even don't even believe in that much. So I didn't think it was gonna do much. And I don't know what it
did, to be honest with you,
JW: I don't care how much money you raised. It wasn't going to do much. But, maybe this arrogance or pride, but we all come from things from a perspective and my father was successful. Now I'm not saying it, times weren't difficult, and he didn't cut back here or there. But you know it's awfully easy to think “Well, they're not the best farmers” and the ones that you know. There were two classes of people. They're the people that had just like, if I had gone back home from college in 1978 or after Graduate School in 1980 and started farming and I had nobody to back me up, I would have been in trouble, okay. But my dad had a large established operation that I could have gone into, I chose not to, but I could have gone into, and I probably would have been fine. So, the young guys, you know that just started up, were under a lot of pressure. And then there were a number of older farmers that um, example. We had a neighbor. Good man, you know, married to his wife for probably 40 years, five kids, raised his kids well, you know, respected in the community. But he probably wasn't that good of a farmer. Okay, well, my dad wound up going to the auction when the bank forced this guy out. And we bought a quarter of land, 160 acres. Their house was right on the corner. I still own this land today, actually. There was three acres with a house and a corn crib and a barn and stuff. And Dad was bidding, not that he wanted the farm, but he just wanted somebody else. He was hoping to generate somebody else to bid. And I think we bought it for $375.00 an acre. And so, he cut off the three acres of house and says, “Just keep your house”, you know, he respected the man. And that man wound up becoming a gardener and kept the yard for the president of the local bank. And he did that for probably the next 20 years of his life. That land today that we bought for $375.00 an acre, if you wanted to buy it from me, I wouldn't entertain anything less than–
I: –12?
JW: 12 thousand a crop acre so-- But he was forced out by the bankers, but he probably wasn't, you know, that good of a farmer. And so, you have young guys that had just started and had no financial backing, and when things turned south, were forced out. But you had a number of older farmers that were kind of on the fringe. Not the, not the best known or best regarded farmers were also being forced out. I don't know if that helps at all.
I: Yeah.
JW: --it with a bit of a personal story but, and to this day, if– I've always wondered if the family would ever come back, say we'd like to buy the farm back. And nobody's ever approached us and now would be prohibitive cost wise.
DS: Can I ask a question just for my own sake? Was Live Aid before or after Farm Aid?
I: Before.
DS: Before?
I: Mhm.
DS: and that was Ethiopia, right? Was that the Ethiopian?
I: South...South Africa. Yeah [unknown].
JW: Well, Apartheid.
DS: I thought, I thought it was Ethiopia.
JW: Well, there were--there was also a big push because the Ethiopia was in ‘84, I think they had a multi-year drought that—I mean, I know we did some giving then.
DS: So, the reason I bring those up to two reasons. One, is when you have multiple things going on at the same time trying to gain attention for and raise money for, it gets watered down some. And the other thing is, and the reason I thought it was Ethiopia is, I remember I was ready to write a check towards-- I couldn't even remember what it was for. I don’t remember if it was Live Aid or what was going towards Ethiopia. But then I started hearing about how the Ethiopian government was scraping off the top uh and keeping it for themselves and it was–the aid was not getting to the people. And so that, that, that sours you on all those programs. So, I'm not– this is nothing against Farm Aid but, it causes you to pause and question, is this really getting to the people that it needs to get to? And I'm not sure that answer was ever-- the question was ever answered very well so.
I: Mhm.
JW: From my perspective, more of the money for Farm Aid would come from somebody sitting in Chicago or Saint Louis or New York rather than from farmers, because again, it may be a product of arrogance. But you know, I thought well, the people that are going out are people that paid too much for that piece of land over there or they weren't very good farmers in the first place. And so not that you’d looked down on ‘em. You didn't wish ill on, on most of your neighbors, you know, maybe a few of them (laughs) but, but uh--
DS: Well here again. The, the psyche of the farmer during that time was, I think it was in ‘85, the dairy buyout, was it ‘85?
JW: ‘85 or ‘86.
DS: ‘86, something like that where dairy farmers, they realized they weren't getting enough money for their milk, and what they did was they pooled-- They funded it themselves, largely, and they bought cows and got them out of production. So, they raised the price of milk so they could make more money, but some, some borderline quality farmers got out or borderline cows, they got rid of them, and so the farmers took care of that themselves. I think at that time that's how the farmers like to operate more. And so, this was not operating from that standpoint. I don't think farmers have a problem with this today, but that was more of the farmer mindset back then. We'll take care of this ourselves.
JW: There was another movement at the time, the American Agricultural Movement or the AAM and one of their big cries were for price parity. And so, they say, well, if corn was X in 1920 and the price of a well, not a pickup, the price of a mule was Y in ‘20 and now therefore, if prices pick up as this the price of corn should be two or three times higher than what it was. And you see, you see this mentality in today's politics when we talk about reparations. I mean there, there's, there's all kinds of views where, well, yeah, we deserve this, or the government should do this for us. And Farm Aid wasn't directly that Farm Aid was, you know, a direct funneling of money from people who wanted to give to people that had needs. But I think the whole crisis of the ‘80s set the stage for what our farm programs have become in the last 20 or 30 years. And I think a lot of stuff that's going on there was set by that. So along with Farm Aid, don't forget the American Ag movement. The tractor Cade to Washington uh, that, that kind of stuff, you know, to get publicity and I think it actually did ultimately have an impact in terms of changes in farm programs. So dairy buyout, I'd forgotten that. I mean, that was a major– I'm a cattle trader and that was a major factor.
DS: (laughs) –put a hickey on you!
JW: Yeah, I'm sure I lost money in it somehow.
I: Right. But I remember you mentioning about, you know you writing a check for Live Aid for Ethiopia and even though you didn't feel that Farm Aid would have too much of a financial impact on the farmers, did you try writing a check for Farm Aid. Or was it just like–
DS: I did not. I was 26 years old at the time– (laughs) and just starting a family, so I probably– In fact, I'd just been married– it was ‘85. I'd been married less than two years, so.
JW: I wouldn't have written a check. And in fact, like you know, charity, I don't want charity. In fact, we were interested in buying land, you know. You know, and we didn't go nuts. We did have a neighbor who had a cousin who was in financial services and the cousin who lived in a metropolitan area away from where farms were came in and bought a number of farms in the area, at that point in time. I think my dad wasn't trying to expand because my dad had a lot of respect for his neighbors and the stuff we did buy was where they had to get out, and if it was right next to our operation, we considered it or in the case of the family I mentioned, he was just trying to stimulate somebody else to bid up for it. And there's just nobody there.
I: So, your father seems more measured in terms of bidding. Was that the same sentiment among other people who were looking to buy land around the time?
DS: Well, then it was.
JW: Well, most bankers wouldn't let them. I mean they were on a short leash. I said my dad was in 1985, he would have been 64. And so, he'd been working for, farming for 40 years and he was a successful farmer. And so, we had a decent sized land base. He was well regarded with the bank. In the 70s, our banker, I remember Dad telling the story. “Glenn buy more land, buy more land!” You know that kind of thing. And so, Dad was never one to be overextended. I'm sure back in the 50s there were times he told stories about all I had was the kids and my wife and the dog and a mortgage. But by the time of the’ 80s I think he was a stronger financial position. And so he wasn't, you know, the bankers controlled a lot of who could bid on land and I would say a good half of the farmers did not qualify.
DS: But you asked a good question. Bidding is less measured today than it was back then. Guys just do some crazy–Some people do some crazy–there's some land in Nebraska that sold for twenty-seven thousand an acre. And my assumption is because that person didn't want that person to have the land and they were going to pay whatever it took. I don't think that generation--your dad's generation would have done that.
JW: No, no, no. I mean there's– there has been competition over time, but the– just look at land values and that gives you a proxy for the economic health of the farmer. It really does. And land values tell you right now that you can listen to any statistic you want to in terms of farm income. And I'm not saying things can't turn south in a hurry, but farmland values right now tell you that the economic health of the farmer in the middle part of the country is pretty darn good.
DS: And even in the 80s. There were still a lot of them that were in fine shape.
JW: Yeah.
DS: Not, not everybody was in trouble, so anyway.
JW: Right.
I: Um, I know you didn't want to mention your political views on the farm crisis, but actually I would actually really love to hear what you thought at the time. Just as a good, like historical record. You know, as somebody who was there.
DS: Well, my view and this wasn't farming, well—It's more of the tractors driving to Washington. Here is my thought. I'm a guy with a young family. In fact, my daughter wasn't born until ‘86. That was actually after that, probably, but just been married for a year or two. Just trying to scrape things together. Renting a house. Renting an apartment. And I'm thinking, get a job if you can't make it, get a job. And so I see that today too. You know, people want stuff. I think get a job. Sometimes that's, that's not always possible, and I understand that. And there's reasons that people can't be more successful but uh, I, we were probably both raised if you want to better yourself, work harder, get educated, be wise, restrain yourself. You know we're talking about, you know, not bidding up too much. Don't overspend on stuff. But borrowing money-- Both of us raised, being raised was not, was not a good idea. I mean, we were raised-- You don't ever borrow money for a car. And so, when people, politically, when people want to make other people do this because these people aren't willing to live the same way you do as far as restraining yourself, I have trouble with that.
JW: And that's not so much a political view in terms of a political party as it is a cultural or social view. In ‘19, I'm hoping for a third.
DS: Yeah.
JW: In ‘19–
DS: I don't like either party so– (laughs) just to make it clear.
JW: I’m, I’m just saying.
DS: I’m hoping for a third or get rid of both of ‘em and have none. (laughs)
JW: You know, look at the last presidential election. Is that the best we can do in terms of candidates?
(laughs)
JW: Sorry, I mean, so in 1974 it was my senior year and I was–
DS: Well, that one ain’t better! (laughs)
JW: I was—Well, I'm trying to demonstrate a point here. I was the emcee for the school talent show the spring of that year, and so I had a number of jokes, and it was a two-night program and the first night I told this joke that President Nixon and his wife were flying across America. And President Nixon says, you know what, I think I'll throw a ten-thousand-dollar bill out of the airplane and make somebody happy. And his wife says, well, why don't you throw out ten one thousand dollar bills and make 10 people happy. And then the pilot turns and says, “Why don't you jump out and make everybody happy?”
(laughs)
JW: So, and I got called on the carpet and the next night I could not tell that joke. So, I wasn't anti or for, but culturally and socially, you know the idea–I was trained as an agricultural economist, both my undergraduate and my first Master's degree, and I believe markets work. Now over time, you know there’s just adjustment and there's pain in markets, but I felt that the people who were crying for– we need prices to be double or triple what they are. Ultimately, the markets will take care of that, all right. And so that's why I had a problem with the American Ag movement and the–my perspective on Farm Aid would have been well, it's charity, but you're not going to go very far. And if you're really doing what you're supposed to be doing, you don't need charity because it may be that you need to go get a job. You know, maybe the best thing that farmer we bought the farm from could have done was to become a gardener for the president of the bank. That might have been the best, you know, career fit for him and I think he was happy. You know, as happy in that role as he was farming. So, it's not political so much as it may be cultural and social.
DS: JP may disown us after–
JW: I don’t think he can listen to this can he?
(laughs)
JW: We need to wrap up. We’re, we're talking too long. Sorry.
I: I wish, I wish we could continue because this has been very–.
DS: Yeah, don't tell JP.
JW: If you happen to lose the recording this–
(laughs)
I: Oh, OK. But it's been certainly wonderful to talk with both of you. This has been a great interview, so I’d just like to say thank you.
DS: Thank you. Appreciate it.
JW: You’re welcome.
I: Yeah and if there's more you would like to share, you could make an appointment with the-- our folks, our friends from the Champaign County History Museum as well. Or talk to Professor Gilbert if you'd like.
DS: They may stick us in it.
JW: We're leaving town.
(laughs)
JW: We're going to be back in Wheaton tonight, and he's going to be in Nebraska in two days, so we're gone.
(laughs)
I: Have safe travels.
DS: Thank you.
JW: Thank you.